Dear students,prof. Conte wants you to try to answer the following questions. Just start commenting, it isn't difficoult!
1) Do you need literature to make legal points? This is one of the critiques to the "second strand" of the Law and Literature movement listed by David Skeel. Can you try to answer to this question?
2) Try to made al list of Italian literature that you think is useful for being a good lawyer in Italy.
I have a personal opinion on what I have read about law and literature movement, not in particular on first second or third strands of the movement rather about the point of view of those writers who belong to it. I agree with them about the necessity of an interdisciplinary connection between law and literature, but most of all about law and the humanities in general. the Law is not sufficient to itself, to become a good lawyer you have to study not only legal materials but also history or philosophy etc. and even literature too can provide a source of inspiration to solve a legal issue. There isn’t a specific list of literature that I can suggest because everything can be used to start a debate and the dialectic is always good for our education. For example: professor Skeel yesterday told about Patricia Williams’ story at the Benetton shop and then we started debating on its authenticity. well I think that it doesn’t care if it was true or not the most important thing is that the story could be true. No one of us hearing the story tought :” no it is impossibile!”this is why we know that racism exists so even if she had been invented all the story her final purpose was to suggest a debate and only by debating on it we can understand the different opinions and try to explain our reasons, it’s dialectic and I think dialectic is our job
ReplyDeleteI agree with the opinion of Enrica because,especially with the second lesson of David Skeel,i understand better the importance of the connection beetween law and literature,especially with the second strand,law and or better as empathy;the connection shows how the stories of,for example Charles dickens,about poor or the social life and not about the power or corporations reflects the real way that the lawyer must follow to make a decision and in my opinion this fact is important especially because realizes,also,a good interaction with a more scientific point of view for example the realism that developed especially in the american school of law at the beggining of twentieth century and also this point of view is important and also professor Skeel said that.This interaction lives although there are critics about this point of view for example the fact that not all the novels reflects the moral uplift.Really,especially in italian university, there isn't,in my opinion,a good education to read and study not only text books,codes or judicial opinions,and for this fact is difficult talk about a useful literature for lawyer,yesterday Professor Skeel talked about authors like Kafka,Calvino or for Italy, novels like the merchant of venice;In spite of this fact i think that is very useful for a lawyer read ,for example,the news or crime news on all the newspapers all the days,omitting the aspect of gossip,to understand better the change of society and to make a good decisions,infact also the story of patricia williams,how also Enrica said,was a her personal story;this opinion become a good way to conciliate our studies of codes or rules and to apply these at the our society.Roberta Antonelli
ReplyDeleteDear students,
ReplyDeletethis really is a good start! Try also to quote specific Italian novels, plays, poems, so that we can make a list. Just to give you an example: do you remember what the judges were like in Collodi's Pinocchio?
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ReplyDeleteI do agree with Enrica and Roberta about the necessity of a connection between law and literature. During professor Skeel's lessons we have focused on the examination of the different strands of the law and the humanities movement and their different perspectives and we have pointed out how literature can be a "tool" for lawyers, judges and legal scholars in many different ways. So, yes, I'm quite sure that you do need literature to make legal points: and this is because of the deep connection among these disciplines. We can indeed read law as literature or we can use literature to better comprehend law. Since we are now focusing about this second aspect (literature as an enrichment in the comprehension of the reality or as a "moral uplift") I think we should outline that reading books has a positive effect on everyone. In my point of view reading literature- and especially good literature- is an enjoyable open-minding activity that enable you to a "larger" vision of the world. And how can this not be especially important for a man of law's?
ReplyDeleteI do agree with Roberta that we should read more than text books, codes and judicial opinions; Roberta mentioned how reading newspapers is important, too, and I absolutely agree about that. This makes me think about a couple of books that may be intresting, being non-fictional literature about criminality: I'm talking about "Il capo dei capi" and "Romanzo criminale".
"Il capo dei capi" has been written by Giuseppe D'Avanzo and Attilio Bolzoni, which are both journalists, and is the powerful and detailed story of the rise to power of Toto Riina and the Corleone clan- a powerful and detailed history of Mafia. "Romanzo Criminale" has been written by Giancarlo De Cataldo, who is a judge and a writer, and it is the romanticized story of the "Banda della Magliana", an italian criminal organization based in Rome. Both this stories are, as I said, based on true facts (Romanzo criminale contains some fictional elements, whereas Il capo dei capi is more adherent to reality) and provide us some historical informations about two big criminal italian organization, but they are also very capturing books (so capturing that from both books have been used to create television series, and the Romanzo Criminale- which plot has been even more romanticized- has been a huge success).
Of course this is just a start, I'll try later to make an appropriate list.
p.s in Collodi's "Pinocchio", Pinocchio has been deceived about farming money in the Campo de' Miracoli and subsequently robbed, by the Fox and the Cat. Pinocchio went to report the fraud to the judge of the Acchiappa-Citrulli (which means Fools Catcher) and he gave a detailed account of what happened, giving also the names of the criminals that have played him and asking justice. The jugde, who was a gorilla, has showed intrest in Pinocchio's narration and seemed moved by what happened, but then he said: "This poor fellow has been robbed of four gold coins. Put him in jail for fourm months!".
It has to be noted that Pinocchio would have stayed in jail for even a longer period if hadn't been for a very lucky circumstance: the young Emporer granted an amnesty to all the criminals of the country. So, Pinocchio was finally liberated, but he had to say: "I'm a criminal too", in order to gain freedom.
Corallina Lopez
In his lessons, Professor Skeel has triggered off a new perspective. In fact, I have never had the occasion to think about the possible relation between law and literature until now.
ReplyDeleteAbout the second strand "literature as empathy" I think that literature is important to understand the human nature in its cultural, social and political patterns. We do not need literature to make legal points but it can be useful to achieve a more complete point of view connected with the problems of society, and maybe to obtain sentences strictly connected with the real society. Literature enriches the legal points and, for this reason, it should be part of the cultural background of lawyers, judges and law students.
The literary works of Kafka and Dickens can explain the model of the society of their time, how the legal system operated and are useful to think about law and his efficiency.
Nowadays a good example of "literature as empathy" are the novels of the judge Carofiglio. With his main character, a lawyer, he uses the same technique of M. Nussbaum "...invite his readers to put themselves in the place of people of many different kinds and to take on their experience" and this is useful to have a discussion about the consequences of legal decisions and rules.
Alessandra Olivero
Very well! Thinking about the diferent strands it really seems that the connections betwen law and literature are really concrete. And thank you Corallina for the precise description of Pinocchio's trial. It is a quite depressive respresentation of justice for a fairy tail written for children in a just unified Italy (1881), isn't it?
ReplyDeleteWell, if You consider Pinocchio only a tale for children, It's a little bit strange to see that representation of justice!
ReplyDeleteI think Collodi written Pinocchio for everyone but children; the original version is too much violent, dark and obsessive for a child, even the vision of a world that always tries to gamble this puppet with no master...
Verga [Malavoglia, 1881 too], could say something similar about justice and the unified Italy!
About law and literature, I would like to turn over the question[even because much about it has been said in the comments before :)]...Is it possible to make legal points without knowing any literature?
In my opinion, not at all.
One of the things I learned from prof. Skeel is that a lawyer lives in a world of acting letters. It is useless to know the rules if we don't understand them and we don't understand the things that they are trying to rule! Literature is everywhere in law, we need if we want to write effective laws and judicial opinions, if we want to defend an accused as well as possible, if we want to know the real issues of the world that we live in, and so on and on...
If we think that a lawyer or a judge is only a full objective person that know and use law [and only law] better than everyone, maybe parrots could be more useful for that work.
Claudio Corsetti
To become good lawyers must be very educated in my opinion, I think literature is a critical part of the culture and especially the Italian culture.
ReplyDeleteI believe that any text, history or story can somehow open up the mind to make us think, and especially the thought of other persons with whom one may compare basic determinant may be the personal baggage of a good lawyer.
I also think that much of what we study at university is a form of literature, wrote that we need to learn and to grow our knowledge.
Well I believe that literature plays a role too in our knowledge, somehow makes us think, learn, and therefore affect for my opinion in a positive way.
monica di silvestro
First of all I would like to thanks prof. Skill to have spent his time with us stressing arguments, law & literature, that isn't so easly to us to talk about during university lessons.
ReplyDeleteI'm very impressed by other student's comments red until now; there is surely a link between law and literature and I agree with prof. Skill's classification of that three strands but I still have my doubts.
Although is certanly important for a law student and for a good lawyer reading law literature, is most important to read any kind of literature and also newspapers to take conscience of the world you're living in and the social and political issues.
As Claudio said Collodi's "Pinocchio" is not a fairy tale written just for kids, like "Favole al telefono" by Gianni Rodari or "La trilogia araldica" (il visconte dimezzato, il barone rampante e il cavaliere inesistente) by Italo Calvino and "Alice in wonderland" by Lewis Carrol because some characters of these novels are not symbol of positive values and atmospherics the stories are basicly dark and unsetting.
I suggest for the useful list of literature in addition to novels by Kafka, Dickens and Twain, like prof. Skeel said, most novels by John Grisham ("the witness" for example), "Delitto e Castigo" by F. Dostoevskij, "L'ultimo giorno di un condannato a morte" by V. Hugo, "Il tulipano nero" by A. Dumas and "De profundis" by O. Wilde.
What do you think about these books?
Have you ever red anyone of these ones?
Francesca Pucci
ReplyDeleteSince Francesca mentioned Crime and Punishment by Dostoevskij, I'd also add The Karamazòv brothers, written by the same author, in which the story of Fedor Pavlovic and his three sons revolves around a trial (I'd not add any details about the causes of the trial in case someone haven't read it yet, I don't want to spoil the plot!).
ReplyDeleteAnd I just noticed that Dante has not been mentioned yet (maybe because it's obvious), but surely La Divina Commedia is one of the most important piece of literature, and it is full of powerful reflections about the human and divine justice. I think that any list of "must-read literature" should include it.
Corallina Lopez
Moira Di Giacomantonio:
ReplyDeleteAlso I do agree with the others my colleagues on the necessity of a connection between the law and the literature and that the literature makes to form and enrich legal points.
Premising that I think all the types of connection between the law and the other sciences, are them social or humanistic sciences, is really important even if under different points of view: the social sciences help us students but also lawyers and judges from an objective point of view while the humanities serves to complete the personal formation of the student from a subjective point of view, increasing its sensibility in to report him to possible legal iussues. Returning to the first cycle of lessons held by Prof. Skeel, I must admit that only on the second lesson I have succeeded in understanding the possible implications of the literature with law.
The "Benetton story" of Patricia Williams has aroused the intervention of many in the classroom; I also believe is not important in to approach to the literature, to establish if the story were true or less, but it is important to think that this can be possible or rather to have a comparison in the reality.
It is this possibility in fact that it brings to reflect on what of wrong there could be in a system, to establish if a general rule is able or must suffer some exceptions and the ampleness of these exceptions is put again to the sensibility of who approaches to the story. This story has been meaningful in to show the connection between law and literature and personally I believe that the second strand "law and empathy", whose end is the moral uplift, must be a precious part in the process of formation of the students of law. The first strand "law as language", according to me, acts to a superior level, when the formation of the student is "completed", it is very more profit to lawyers and judges.
To the list of the possible useful italian literature I would add some books that I red at the high school because in this moment the others don't come to mind: "Se questo è un uomo" of Primo Levi: it is a testimony on the human condition in the lager of Auschwitz in which the moral judgment doesn't cancel neither it ignores the individual and collective responsibilities;
"La città del sole" of Tommaso Campanella:it represents a model of pacific and correct society in an imaginary place(a literary utopia) in which, for example, don't exist private goods that would induce to the egoism and the overcoming;a city of justice and equality; a city where there isn't the war because it would not be right to be there
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ReplyDeleteThe second strand LAW AND EMPATHY, that prof. Skeel talked about, argues that literature is very important for law practice and for how we understand law. Literature helps us to discover ourselves and learns to empathize with others.
ReplyDeleteI think that it’s true: studying literary texts we understand the reality and the problems of society of the historical period and we understand the strong connection between literature and law.
I’m absolutely agree with the opinion of Alessandra Olivero: she said that literature enriches the legal point and it should be part of the cultural background of lawyers, judges and law students.
For me when I think about important Italian authors, I remind “dei delitti e delle pene” by Cesare Beccaria. It conceived culture as utilitarian terms, namely as a means of intervention on the concret reality with the aim of improving the material conditions of life. The theme of “dei delitti e delle pene” is limited to the issue of justice, and thus of politics and society, and finally the relationship between society and the well-being.
Beccaria's criticism of torture and the death penalty indicated a turn in the general sense; in fact in 1786 Pietro Leopoldo abolished death penalty in Tuscany.
Cristina Di Florio
As many other colleagues said, I think that law is also connected with literature, but more in general with the umanities.
ReplyDeleteI think that in italian culture it has not too importance. Italian system is not the best because we have to study only on the books or codes without discuss or interact with other opinions, with other sources.
For me, first of all, read literature is important for students, because it helps their personal formation. But also for judjes and lawyers because it helps them in their work, for writing law, opinions and sentenses. it's indispensable to understand the human nature and the society, and do the best.
The Benetton story of Patricia Williams is an example, for me, of how the literature can show and teach us the real society. In this story it is not important if it really appened or not, but it is possible. Now, this is the real condition of the society.
Francesca Natalini
I agree with the Skeel's point of view.
ReplyDeleteI think,that the literature is very important to became a good lawyer, because, it can help to understand the law.
Personally, i think that reading novels helps to open mind and it's important for law practice and to understand better law.
How prof. Skeel says,the literature helps lawyers,anyway, it doesn't mean that the literature is the only way to became a good lawyer.
Obviously all the literary genres,are important for the training of a good lawyer.
In the literature,often,appears the figure of lawyer,but most of the time in negative way.
The most important example,is Azzeccagarbugli of "Promessi Sposi" novel,even if this is a negative rappresentation of the figure of the lawyer.
Azzeccacarbugli is a terrible lawyer that use latin language ,so others characters of the novel don't understand what he says,showing his knowledges.
Valentina Favilli
The best exponents of the second strand are Robin West and Martha Nusbaum.
ReplyDeleteBoth think that lawyers should read literature to better understand human nature and human consequences of legal decisions and rules.
According to them literature help us to " discover ourselves", to learn to empathize with others.
Lawyers should read literature, particularly nineteenth century novels and other fictions, such as Kafka' s stories (" The judgment", " The Trial") or for example Mark Twain' s novels.
I agree with the professor Skeel' s point of view, I think that a good lawyer has to read literature and he needs to have an ample cultural background... he can not just to know the rules of the law.
Skeel ' s essay makes known that a great deal of literature does not teach us legally relevant lessons about empathy.
There in an other critic to the second strand: others have pointed out that, because most readers will not read the literature in question, moral uplift scholars must summarize it for their benefit.
About Italian literature I think that Calvino is one of the author that a good lawyer should read, because his masterpieces are a reflection on contemporary society.
Considering that there is always the law where there is the society, Calvino' s works are a suggestion for lawyers, judges an law students.
Sara De Prosperis
What you said Stefania Gialdroni is really what I tried to explain before. Patricia Williams' story closes us to a real phenomenon of society (racism) and all the other readings that we can add to the list are point we are called to reflect on. As professor Skeel quoted in the article "a lawyer operates in a field of pain and death" so we are not only professionals who are called to say what is wrong and what is right but we are also people who have to help other people in difficulty. so we have to be good in our job reading legal materials but we have to be informed too on reality and how our society works and if literature can help us to do so: we need literature to become better lawyers
ReplyDeleteDear Enrica,
ReplyDeleteyou were succesful in posting your comment, so I don't have to do anything.
About Pinocchio, I just wanted to add that it is true that Collodi didn't want, at first, to write a novel for children (or maybe teen agers) but it is also true that the second version, the one we all know (in the first one Pinocchio died), was publised in a magazine for children. Anyway, it is now a classic of children's literature as well as other very cruel stories: just think about the brothers Grimm's fairy tales!
About the many novels that you have quoted as examples of law in literature, I have to thank you but also to tell some of you to pay attention: there is a difference between fictions that can give a message about law (Dostoevskij, Kafka, Dickens, etc.) and essays which aren't fictions, which haven't a plot. These are to be considered philosophical works or legal treatises(Beccaria). Certainly Beccaria influenced legal history: without his work a part of the legal history of Europe can't even be understood. On the other hand, "Crime and punishment", e.g., can be very helpful for the education of a lawyer from a "law as empathy" perspective (or a legal historical perspective, or a law and psychology perspective) but it isn't exactly a part of our legal historical background. Can you see the difference?
in my opinion dott. Stefania Gialdroni all the authors like Calvino,Dickens,Collodi or Beccaria,are very usefuls for our vocational training and not only from a point of view of "law as empathy"but also for "law and narrative"or "law and or as literature"and after red the article about "law and philosophy"especially in the creation of penal sistem of law these authors were very important but these novels must are suited at nowadays because,in my opinion the risk is that antiques istitutions or different backgrounds can damage the revolution of sistem.Roberta Antonelli
ReplyDeleteI'm very interested in your discussion.I remember that Kafka's main themes are "guilt and punishment".His protagonists have got an unknown guilt apparently,have not an happy and free existance.Man is alienated by the modern industrial society and lives in solitude.Law exists but man doesn't know it and this is the tragedy!His works are fictions,fantasy stories and they are different from Beccaria's essay.Beccaria asks question himself about crime and punishment.His essay isn't a fiction,it is a legal work.He distinguished crime and sin.Only the first is a damage for the society.He talked about the certain punishment,the proportion of punishment and criticized the death penalty.Man needs education and knowledge to prevent crime.In my opinion all these authors and their essays(with their differences)had a lot of results in our history and today it's so important to know them for european lawyers.
ReplyDeleteyes I post it!!sorry for the e-mail but I didn't understand the problem...
ReplyDeleteLike the respected professor David Skeel, I believe that today it is especially important to approach the links between the different subjects, so that our training is not only sectorial. I believe that most that use the resources of literary criticism to examine the legal writings (First strand, "hermeneutical approach"), it is necessary for a lawyer to read the literature to better understand human psycology resulting from a legal rule or decision (Second strand, "Literature as emphaty"). It is possible just to go back in time a bit to realize that also Machiavelli, in his famous work "Il Principe", speaks about laws, general laws, which are designed not as foolproof, but as simple and orienting actions of the Prince, which most always face the reality.
ReplyDeleteFinally, about the Third strand, I agree with the many criticisms of this view, since we are never sure about what a person might present ourselves as a real fact, and it also would require the lawyer some abilities of a technical novelist which he hasn't got.
Maria Lisa Avvisati
I believe that every person should be interested in literature for their personal growth (in particular lawyers, judges and students)especially the classics such as "se questo è un uomo" by Primo Levi that allows us to reflect on the value of equality and tolerance or "dei delitti e delle pene" by Cesare Beccaria, which deals with legal issues or even "il Candido" by Voltaire which focuses on how to see reality objectively or .
ReplyDeleteIn particular, lawyers, judges and students should have a good knowledge of the literature because it allows not only to acquire language more polished, but it also offered ideas and views are often different from ours, in short, allows you to reflect and analyze an issue.
I think that for who live his life in law , he needs a very big culture not only in law, wich is the field where he works but also in others matters like scientific discipline but especially in literature.
ReplyDeletewhen one read a book he travels whith his mind and he lives too many experencies .
it's from the ancient time that literature teach us too many things also in law , like the greek tragedy of antigone that speak about the tragical situation of antigone that lives the contrast between the positive law of her city and the natural right .
also socrate shows us that he must die for teach to the city the true justice .
finally the shakespeare's masterpiece "merchant of venice" tell us about the portia's legal ploy that apply the right to the right to saving her love from an unjust decision , it's the portrait of the law interpretation .
The German novels
ReplyDeleteAs Erasmus student I am not deeply familiar with Italian novels. Therefore, I want to add some German novels which I regard as to be important.
Firstly, I want to present you the book “Der Besuch der alten Dame / The visit of the old Lady” by Friedrich Dürrenmatt. It is a story about an old Lady who returns to the village of her birth. She had to leave it as young unmarried woman because she was pregnant. The father of the unborn child, named Ill didn’t want to marry her and therefore she had to go. Many years after her leaving she returns as successful and rich old Lady and claims justice. She wants revenge for the unjust treatment. The village is unknown and suffers from its unimportance – no work and no money for its inhabitants. The old Lady makes the offer to enrich them if they will help to kill her former boyfriend Ill. At first Ill is convinced that they won’t do this because it is against law, but afterwards he must realize that her power is much more important than the law. She takes the law into her own hands and causes Ill’s death. It is a book about justice, power and vigilantism.
Furthermore, an interesting novels is “Michael Kohlhaas” by Heinrich von Kleist. Kleist describes the story of the horse dealer Michael Kohlhaas who is stopped by a junker because of missing transit papers while travelling to Dresden. As collateral he has to give him two of his horses. After being arrived in Dresden he notices that it was arbitrary, he tries to sue for the horses and, after discovering that they suffered by hard field work, also for the damage. It is a long story of proceedings, the power of governors and the various point of view of justice in different social situations.
Besides, in my opinion the book “Der Vorleser / The Reader” by Bernhard Schlink is worth reading. It is about the relationship between the young boy Michael and the older woman Hanna. They fell in love with each other and Michael spends a lot of time reading out loud different books while Hanna is listening. When Hanna breaks up and disappears. He begins to study law and attends a lecture of getting over the Nazi regime. Parts of this lecture are also interrogation of former nurses in concentration camps. There he meets Hanna again. She is one of the nurses and now he attends every session. He knows that she is innocent because as illiterate she is not able to fulfill the acts she is accused of. It is a great book which deals with Michael’s struggle between justice and his personal point of view, his feelings for her and his opinion of the Nazi regime.
These are only a few works which might be interesting and useful for lawyer but also for everybody who is interested in topics like power, objectivity and justice.
Katharina Longin
Hi there! Does anyone want to write a list of all the authors and works quoted? If someone wants to do it just write me an email and then we will check it together and post it on the blog!
ReplyDelete