The blog of the 2011 "Law and the Humanities" course at the RomaTre University (Law Faculty) directed by Prof. Emanuele Conte. By Stefania Gialdroni
Quino, "Potentes, prepotentes, impotentes", Buenos Aires, 1989
Apr 3, 2011
THREE IMAGES TO GUESS ABOUT
Dear students,
prof. Martyn asked me to put on the blog these 3 images: you should try to interpret them and comment on the blog or during the classes. Let's try, don't be shy!
The first picture is a representation of the Solomon judgement. This famous legend is a classic subject for the artists, the most famous painting is the one of Toussaint. In this legend, from the Bible, Salomon king of Israel, has to choose betwen two women who pretend to be the mother of a baby. As it is impossible for him to know the truth he asks to one of his soldier to "share" the baby in two parts. One of the woman agree and the second supplies the king to give the baby to the other one. Solomon understands at this moment who is the mother, the woman who prefers her child alive with an other family than dead.
Very well, Lucie! And thanks a lot for your enthusiasm! This was indeed, I think, the easiest iconographic problem to 'unveil'. This 'Solomon's wisdom' was painted by Gaspar De Cra(e)yer in the 17th c. The canvas was commissioned by a college of aldermen, i.e. 'a magistrate' or 'a tribunal or court' (the magistrate of the 'Old Borough' of the Flemish city of Ghent).
Now you guessed the theme, let's get into some details: 1. What was the women's 'profession'? And does this show in their representation? 2. What are the typical symbols for Solomon as a king? 3. This 'exemplum iustitiae' (see my article on the subject) is clearly inspired by the Holy Bible. Can you find the specific text and check if other elements of the text are represented in the painting as well? See you soon! Georges Martyn
Dear prof. Martyn, thank you very much for your active participation even before the beginning of the classes! Lucie has been very quick and has given the right answer: good work! I would like to give a little information too: the text is 1 Kings 3: 16-28. See you!
In the Solomon's wisdom legend both women are prostitutes: maybe in that representation one could guess it from the wide neckline of the woman (standing on the right) that shows her breasts. I hope to do it right, however I think that the symbols of King Salomon are the book that represents the wisdom and the sceptre that represents the power. Instead, the Seal of Solomon, as the legend said, is a signet ring shaped hexagram: this symbol consists of two interlaced triangles which will be the symbol of the Jewish religion. I have red the text in the Holy Bible and in my opinion there aren't in the painting other elements that are represented as well. Francesca Pucci
Thanks, Francesca. Good answer as far as the women's business is concerned and, yes, especially the right one looks rather 'wildly' dressed. But especially the COLOUR of the women's clothing has a specific meaning. Yellow is a colour I wouldn't advise you to wear in ancient times... Typical for a king is indeed his SCEPTRE. And do not forget his CROWN, of course! Thanks for adding suggestions on the seal and the book. As far as 'sticking to the text' concerns, De Crayer made one mistake. Indeed not according to the passage of this dispute between the two women. But if the painter had read 1 Kings 10:19, he should have painted: 'the throne had six steps, and at the back of the throne was a calf's head, and on each side of the seat were armrests and two lions standing beside the armrests'...
Now you resolved the first iconographical problem, let me help all of you a little bit with the Dutch blue tile, mentioning 'T.1.L.19'. The abbreviation stands for a reference to a text. This time it is not about a biblical passage. Try to think of a very important collection of texts for Ancient Regime jurists ... Something with numbered 'T' and 'L'. Have a try! Georges Martyn
I think that is very good talk about the iconographical problem,because through these rappresentations the iconography explains the role of justice;especially in the solomon's legend are rappresented all themes about the right justice infact also through the text in the bible(1kings 3:16-28),Solomon embodies the right justice and the typical attitude of the jourists to understand what is right and what is wrong through interpretation in this case of the behavior and reactions of the two women and in my opinion also the fact that solomon is rappresented elevated respect the other protagonists especially respect the two prostitutes simbolizes his role.
Dear Prof.Martyn the texts about the connection beetween law and iconography explain very well how all simbols and images testify the interaction beetween law and art especially in the rappresentation of The Last Judment that changes in different times or the rappresentation of Lady Justice that embodies the Justice and also Dott.ssa Gialdroni showed this tipycal rappresentation in the "Palazzo di giustizia"in rome during her lesson about the interation between law and architecture.Is very difficult for me find the meaning of the second immage,maybe the text in wich we can find the datum and the meaning is the french code civil?i'm sorry for my question but i'm very interested to understand the meaning.Roberta Antonelli
I will try to answer Professor Martyn’s questions : 1. The two women are prostitutes: we can understand it from their showy dresses, opened on their breast, from the jewels and from the loose hair of one of them; moreover, in contrast with this rich appearance, one of them is bare foot, while the other one wears clogs, and this suggest that they aren’t real ladies.
2. King Solomon is represented as an ancient roman emperor, seated on the throne with the crown on his head and the sceptre in his right hand.
3. In this passage of the Holy Bible (1Re 3, 16-28) is described the whole story: two women used to live in the same house, both of them had a baby in the same period, but one of the children died, suffocated during the night; so, one of them decided to go to the king because, according to her story, the other woman stole her child; the King, having no evidence, said that he would have cut in two the baby to put them to the test: the woman who would have asked him for mercy was the real mother. Both the children (the dead one and the other alive) and the sword are represented in the painting. Luigi Papi
I try to found the text that one could refer to the abbreviation: maybe is the nineteenth book (Liber) of the Digesto. The first title of that book is about "De actionibus empti venditi" or the reciprocal performance in the contract of sale. I try to interpret that paint by this point of view: I think that the people in the paint are merchants and perhaps there was a problem about the horse's sale so was necessary a judgement. Right now I can't do it better than that,I'm sorry! Francesca Pucci
Maybe the interpretation of Francesca is right but is strange that the man wich rappresents the judge in the picture with a twig that indicates the man with the horse appears barefoot respect other protagonists and this fact is strange because in all of pictures generally the judge is central and wears luxuries clothes or for example mantles like in the solomon's picture,but on the other hand he's rappresented on a scale and often the judges are rappresented on the scales like Prof.Martyn sais in the text,like a simble of superiority.Has Francesca resolve the iconographical problem? Roberta Antonelli
Thank you, Roberta and Luigi, for your comments. On Solomon's Wisdom the most important things have been said by now. The last comments by Luigi contain a good synthesis and worthful additions. So let's turn to the blue tile now. And let me add another hint to my former post on the blog. "T.1.L.19" refers to a passage in Justinian's Corpus Iuris Civilis. 'T' stands for 'titulus' and 'L' for 'liber'. Does this help you to 'understand' the iconography?
Congratulations to Francesca! (Sorry my post crossed hers, so that I didn't reply earlier.) The Dutch tile (Harlingen 1687) is one out of series of ceramic tiles representing the titles of the Digest. This one is indeed on 'de actionibus empti venditi' (D.19.1). Roberta is correctly assuming that the standing man with the branch of bough, up the steps, is the judge. The discussion is about a contract of sale of goods, of course. The seller (the left man with his goods (=cloths) under his arm) promised to deliver the goods to the buyer. Unfortunately, the horse arrived at the buyer's place with no more goods on its back. Who bears the risk?? As the seller was in charge of the delivery (he is leading the horse), the buyer (=claimant, standing on the right hand side of the judge) gets his claim adjudged. Problem two solved! Let's have a look at problem three...
I think the painting is more interesting is the very last one left. On the side of the painting there are people around a table that seem to be lawyers but do not participate in the trial, they act as mere spectators. It seems that people implore for help or justice, and the man dressed in red, which embodies in some way justice on earth (perhaps a judge?) points to the sky as if to say that the only true justice is in God and not on earth. I do not know maybe it's just my imagination!
I have read your comments about the dutch tile. if the person on the right of the judge is the buyer and the person that is leading the horse is the seller,the question that we have to ask to ourself is: who are the two persons on the left of the picture that are holding the clothes? personally I think that they are two person that have got the goods from the horse, even if we don't know why. they could be thieves that have stolen the clothes from the horse,or maybe, they have found the clothes that the horse have lost along the way.
Based on what i read in previous discussions, i did a search on GASPAR DE CRAYER and i'm impressed by the work ALEXANDER AND DIOGENES where the iconography is philosophical. Diogenes replied ti Alexander when he asked him if there was any favour he might do for him:"stand a little less between me and the sun." It's strong the contrast between the youthful and beautiful hero and the old man. The message of the painting is the meaninglessness of earthly power when confronted with ethical principles.... even if is not a legal iconography i hope will get you interested!!! GIULIA CORCOS
Not easy to find an historical connection with the second picture, but I try to describe it. Of course there are many elements that show a legal scene. -The standing man in the centre of the scene is the protagonist, and with him lots of typical symbols of authority that he represents:hand in air,red gown,hard look.. probably he is a judge and he stood up from the chair behind him to make the decision
-His authorithy is clearly visible from the people in the right of a design.. they're imploring him for a favorable judgment.
-Opposite to the people there are other lawyers(and it's important that the people,maybe a family,is in the bottom of the scene, while the lawyers at the top of it).. I can't imagine their role, but they have pens and legal books or codes in the table.. so maybe they are a council, and they're annotating the judgment..
it's just a beginnig..i can't do it better for now
i was thinking about the third picture ... we can see a group of peoples in front of a door that wear simple and poor clothes,this is in contrast with the style of the room and wealth of the other people. it's possible that the poors peoples are begging justice for them and the person in the centre of the picture is saying that for them only the divine justice exist and anyone can have the human justice? i'm thinking this because in ancient time law is not the same for all!!
Let me first answer to Giulia and to Valentina: - On the ceramic tile: actually we see twice the same two persons (buyer and seller at the moment of the contract and the two parties in front of the judge, again the same buyer and seller). As I shall show you later this week, putting two scenes with the same characters in one canvas is a common thing to do in legal iconography. - On Gaspar de Crayer: right you are! He has been considered by most art historians as a 'small follower' of Rubens, but some of his works are indeed brilliant.
Lisa, Giordano and Paolo, I thank you for giving very good first impressions on the third canvas. Lisa describes it very well: the men at the table, some of them at least, look like lawyers but do not seem to participate; the (poor) people coming from the left are imploring something; the man in the middle is pointing to God in heaven as if the only source of justice is to be found there... Correct! But who, than, is this man?? - Paolo is right: the man got up from the chair and might be a judge. (His red robe is indeed a - canon - judge robe!) And thank you, Paolo, for making us see that the poor implorers are kneeling down to earth, while the lawyers sit high up. - Giordano adds to that, very precisely too, that the poor beggars do not seem to fit well in the luxurious room. Continuing on your suggestions: what if the protagonist of the painting was some kind of 'advocate' for poor people, helping them in the name of God above? What if he was a saint? See you tomorrow!
I think that the first picture is extremely linked to " performance" lesson we had last week... It shows us how important and Smart could be mix different subjects to reach the goal which is the justice... Salomone Who rapresents the right and the wisdom and the power used the psychology to find a right to solve the case( wasn't him the first professor of law and humanities?!?!?) About the second pitture it looks that it is divided in two parts, one with the richness (maybe given by the culture and the law) and the other one where poor people Are asking for something. The two"teams" look eachother and right in the middle i would say there is someone Who should judge(?!?). I am guessing pf course. A dog right down in the left corner (Who is a symbol of fidelity) looks scared or anyway worried. He looks at the poor people as well and it looks like he is protecting the books right NeXT to . Giulia baliva
Paolo’s comment is very interesting. Thinking more about another possible interpretation of the second picture, I think that men next to the chair (where probably was seated the judge) are advisors. Their legal assistance, thanks to the papers consultations and personal reasoned opinions, is essential for the case resolution. As we all can see those man are still talking about the case and one of those is still consulting ,probably, legal materials as if they disagree about some discussions points. Moreover It is possible, that the youngest man(the first next to the judge on the left) is someone who is trying to learn the judging “art”. Maybe he’s a student which interested in the case, is trying to understand all the reasoning steps leads to decision. He seems to me fascinated by the judge! What do you think about it? Luca Tosto
The interpretation of Giordano,in my opinion,is very good and with his interpretation we can be an a comparison with the first picture in wich Solomon try to interpret the behaviour of twwo women that probably embody the human and wrong justice especially for the first woman that sais that the child is her son meanwhile Solomon rappresents the right and divine justice and equally solomon like the central man in the third picture wears luxuries clothes and the two women like the poor people in the third picture wears poor clothes,so in my opinion clothes are the tools that rappresents the roles(on the hand the divine and right justice ,on the other hand the human and wrong justice) in both pictures.Roberta Antonelli
Luca saw very well that the people on the left are counsellors, giving arguments to the judge. Especially the youngest one is there to learn about practice. He is ‘the boy’ (in Dutch; ‘de knaepe’). I shall explain this point further in class. Roberta’s assertion that the contradistinction between the well dressed people on the left and the group of poor beggars on the right might refer to the opposite between heavenly and earthly justice. A good try! However, most ancient legal iconography stresses that worldly justice must be based on divine law. So, the contradistinction is commonly not made. Giulia’s pointing at the dog brings us to an interesting detail. Indeed, a dog very often stands for fidelity. Sometimes we see lady Justice between a (good) dog and a (bad) snake. But be aware that there is not only ‘the dog’, but that we should look at ‘what type of dog’ it is: a hunting dog, a pittbull, a poodle... They do not all stand for the same virtue or vice! In this case however, you should especially remark that there are two dogs: a mother dog and a little one. And this particularly refers to the fact that the man in the middle is always helping widows and orphans... This brings me to the final hint on this painting. Left we see legal practitioners (advocate, proctor, notary, clerk). On the right hand side arrive poor people begging for help and justice. The man in the middle is a judge, an ecclesiastical one (wearing the red robe with white fur). He’s not just A judge, he is a SPECIAL one. This judge was canonised a SAINT just a few years after his dead. He became the patron saint of legal practitioners. Poor people who needed judicial assistance, today called ‘pro bono’, in former times went to this saint’s confraternities, begging for help ‘pro Deo et sancto ...’. Who’s the saint we are looking for?
After the lesson,that was very interesting,i have a question,infact: we saw that in the legal iconography generally the right side rappresents the good side;so in the third picture the poor people are on the right while the well dressed people are on the left side and in reference to this fact i said,before the lesson, that the well dressed rappresent the right justice and the poor people rappresent the wrong justice but in reference to right and left is not like this,so what is the right interpretation?
Is St. Yves, an ecclesiastic judge that by his charity gained the title of advocate and patron of the poor. Is the patron of the lawyers! I have only a question: why is St. Yves in that paint without halo? It's so strange in my opinion because I think that halo is an important symbol. Francesca Pucci
Congratulations, Francesca! It is indeed Saint Yves. I shall elaborate on this painting on friday. You are right that it is rather strange NOT to see any halo or nimbus. On the other hand, it is lacking in many other Ivo-representations as well. As far as Roberta's last remark concerns, I draw your attention to the fact that the 'RIGHT' side is the RIGHT HAND SIDE OF GOD. When we look for instance to a last judgment, than we face God, so that right for Him is left for us.... So the poor beggars come from the bad side.... More on left and right and the last judgment tomorrow!
all three images rapresent the justice;but i think that the first rapresent the punishment against mother who is taking the child from the arms; the second imagee rapresents maybe a court and a judge before whom many people seem to implore something ... maybe justice or lose! Fabiola Capparelli
Today in class Professor Martyn spoke about the interesting image of Lady Justice is often represented as a blindfolded woman. this can have a positive meaning (justice is impartial because it does not distinguish between rich and poor) or negative (because the justice in this way does not see the facts), but also the goddess of fortune is often represented as a blindfolded woman, so I wanted ask to Professor Martyn : there may be some connection between these two images or is it just a coincidence?
I think it is not a coincidence, but they Are both characterized by the same thing:impartiality... But of course this is just my opinion! Back to the lesson we had today, prof martyn said that again trials took place into the churches in the middle ages because everything was linked to the religion and to GOd, but isn't it the opposite of what happened centuries earlier? I remember that the first "basilicas" were just markets and justice courts by the romans time, and the "navate" were built because like that in between the columns they putted tents to create different courts. Once the christianity became something too big to be hidden and ignorated then the basilicas became the place where the people could pray. Giulia baliva
Today doc.Martyn showed us a lot of interesting paintings about"Last judgment" and the representation of Justice.In particular"last judgment"is a strong theme during the Medieval era.Infact this era is characterized by the constant presence of God in all the aspects of life,the fear of God and his punishment,sin and his consequence...I paid particular attention at the"Last judgment"of Van Eyck,Flemish painter who represents the figures in a realistic way.There are three plans and the figures have different dimensions maybe for their different importance.There is Christ,Mary and John the Baptist,the angels and the twelve apostles.In the bottom the dead emerge from the earth and the sea and they are waiting for the judgment with the archangel Michele who holds a symbol of Justice:the sword.This painting is a good example of the relation between art and law,but also in my opinion it had in that period an education function,a message for all people:man had to live correctly and religiously otherwise they will be sentin Hell as the picture shows.Can i interpret these images in the sense of a moral message able to encourage people to choose good in their life?Federica Gulli'.
I was impressed by evolution that took in painting the picture of law and iustitia. represented the beginning with a sword in his hand as if to signal the passage of the divine in the hands of those judges, then represented as a tree symbol and guardian of certainty of knowledge that is there for centuries and knows what happened, we saw the figure of a tree surrounded by barriers and what were depicted in the courts and the delimitation within this indicated the absence of violence, another example S. Louis. Furthermore, some representations were taken from the Egyptian tradition as the scale. subsequently it has come to represent not with a woman but as a man with a sword and in the turtle, a symbol of slowness and calm that is the right justice. later with a bandage over his eyes so as not to see the rich and poor and unable to judge without being influenced by the firm, but the bandage if justice should be impartial in itself, I think it is irrelevant because even without such a good court is able to judge the individual case without being influenced by what he sees. Finally, justice has been attached to the concept of peace. Monica Di Silvestro
"Today in class Professor Martyn spoke about the interesting image of Lady Justice is often represented as a blindfolded woman. this can have a positive meaning (justice is impartial because it does not distinguish between rich and poor) or negative (because the justice in this way does not see the facts), but also the goddess of fortune is often represented as a blindfolded woman, so I wanted ask to Professor Martyn : there may be some connection between these two images or is it just a coincidence?" I was thinking about the same thing- but, in my opinion, by comparing blindfolded fortune to blindfolded justice we enhance the negative meaning of the veil. Fortune is blind by definition, while justice aim's is equality and impartiality: the symbolic blindness of fate holds no ambiguities, being ontologic*, while "there is a critical ambiguity to the blindfold of justice" (Images of justice- Curtis and Resnik). Cesare Ripa wrote in his "Iconologia" that Justice is "blindfolded for nothing but pure reason, not the often misleading evidence of the senses, should be used in making judgments", but while this means no bribery and no influences (from the sovereigns) this could also mean a failure to see the truth. Let's think about cupids, or Eros himself: blindfoldness here is an "indication of the foolishness and confusion generated by love". And during dr. Gialdroni's lessons we also talked about the figures sorrounding Cavour statue and we wondered about the meaning of the cloth covering Thought's eyes: it could be read as a symbol of the Vatican's obscurantism. So, considered that the blindfold is a relatively late addition to the imaginary of Justice (most images of Justice before the 16th century did not include blindfolds) we can read it in two opposite meanings: we might imagine that the judge imposes her own blindfold to have "no fear or favor" (and, so, to stood apart from the sovereign) or we might imagine that the sovereing imposes the blindfold. I'm quite fascinated by these ambiguities; in my humble opinion, symbols (like laws?!) have to be interpreted, and- as we all know- interpretation is not a static activity: there is not a fixed and correct result.
*even if the blindfold, opposed to blindness, suggests an act of self-restraint.
Sure, Carollina, interpretation is not static, but dynamic. Laws and symbols get different meanings throughout the centuries... At the end of today’s lesson I mentioned some hypotheses on where the lasting success of the blindfold might come from. Earlier today I mentioned the importance of Alciatus’ Emblemata. Tomorrow I shall show you the picture that, to me, is rather convincing evidence for the hypothesis that Alciatus’ Emblemata is the real reason for the blindfold’s success. As both Lisa and Carollina mentioned, there is an intriguing ‘coincidence’ in the fact that also Fortune is represented with a blindfold. Giulia sees in this parallel a similarity with impartiality, but while being ‘impartial’ is good, deciding blindly by good luck is bad... So I think, like some of you remarked very correctly, that this ‘coincidence’ only strengthens the negative aspect of the blindfold. I shall show you tomorrow a critical engraving of the 16th c., where actually Justitia is represented AS Fortuna... and that, of course, is not good. As far as the connection between ‘deciding cases’ and ‘religious legitimisation’ is concerned, many books have been written on the subject (especially by legal anthropologists). When a Last Judgment is depicted in a judge’s room, in the first place the judges themselves are the ‘addressees’ of the painting. But of course, Federica is right that a Last Judgment also has a broader educational function, for all the people, certainly when it is placed above the entrance of the church, in the middle of town. At this point, Giulia’s comment on the basilicas is indeed some kind of ‘exception’. What legal anthropologists see in many cultures and what was obvious in the Christian middle ages, indeed is not completely transferable to the Roman situation... Thank you for that remark! And I thank all of you for participating in these discussions!
The lessons of Prof. Martyn were very interesting. I was very impressed by the painting "the advocate of difficult affairs" by Pieter Breughel (Ghent Museum Of Fine Arts). There are many reproductions of this picture: Monaco, Bruges, etc.. It describes a typical situation of the reality of 15th-16th century: people were going to ask for help to the procurator about a dispute ( unlike the advocate-long toga with epitoga-, the procurator-short toga without epitoga- was always necessary ),they brought their gifts or money to procurator; there was a younge man was learning about practice who wrote notes and opened the door; there was many procedural bags and paperwork. In this painting we can see how were represented procurators or legal professions in general, we can see the view of the artist; the messages coming from the picture are: "time is money", "procedures can take a long time", "writing = money". So men of law becomes men of money, it means that legal professions are all corrupt. Thinking about that I was reminded of another lawyer figure in our literature: Dr. Azzaccagarbugli in "I promessi sposi" by Alessandro Manzoni. He is the lawyer of iniquity and vice, called by the common people like Dr. Azzeccagarbugli; he is described high, dry, bald, with a red nose wearing a robe that serves as a dressing gown. His studio is a frame of the physical decay and moral character: it is a large room on three walls of which hang the portraits of the Twelve Caesars, on the fourth wall supported a large shelf of old books and dusty in the middle is a table full of cards in bulk, with three or four chairs around, and one part a rather shabby chair with armrests. Renzo (a poor farmer) brings him four capons as gifts, but Dr. Azzaccagarbugli rejects them because can't go against the richest and most powerfull people like don Rodrigo. The man of law tramples upon his duties as a professional to kill the justice and truth( man of law = man of money).
Thank you very much, Cristina, for this comment and beautiful comparison to a famous Italian book I was not familiar with (I just 'googled' it and saw that, although written in the 19th century, the story is situated in the first decades of the 17th century, exactly the period of the enormous succes of the painting by Breughel the Younger). This brings us to a remarkable link between 'law and iconography' on the one hand and 'law and literature' on the other, the topic on which you will work further this week with prof. Garry Watt. Enjoy it! It was a great pleasure lecturing in Rome! Thanks for your enthusiasm and interest. If you still have any questions or great ideas on historical legal iconography, never hesitate to contact me: Georges.Martyn@ugent.be. I wish all of you good luck in your further academic and profesisonal carreers! Georges Martyn
as prof martyn suggested us, i went to the archivio di stato on sunday for the guided tour of"sulle ombre di caravaggio" .actually you cannot really say it is an exibition of caravaggio's art, but for sure about caravaggio's life... it is a legal testimoniance of what happened by that time. as prof martyn said it is very interesting cause you can actually see the books with the torture or the sentences of the judges drown on it and many different matters connected to the law. there are legal books, paints and poetries about declarations of one artist about another. and actually that was their way to say their opinion and from these were the trials.
it is very interesting. the story is about a big trial where caravaggio made a list of bad artists and painters and good ones. it is about the death convictions and their rule of punish but at the same time to teach to the other people how to live their life to avoid that end... the athmosphere dominated by corruption and church is easly recognizable. the opportunity to walk into the archivio di stato is also a great thing cause there are preserved hundreds of books in a very old and fashinating library. tthe entrance is 8 euro and is included a guide that shows and explain everything in detail with many anectodes about the private and complicated life of caravaggio, always in between the power and the law problems.
The first picture is a representation of the Solomon judgement. This famous legend is a classic subject for the artists, the most famous painting is the one of Toussaint.
ReplyDeleteIn this legend, from the Bible, Salomon king of Israel, has to choose betwen two women who pretend to be the mother of a baby. As it is impossible for him to know the truth he asks to one of his soldier to "share" the baby in two parts. One of the woman agree and the second supplies the king to give the baby to the other one. Solomon understands at this moment who is the mother, the woman who prefers her child alive with an other family than dead.
Very well, Lucie!
ReplyDeleteAnd thanks a lot for your enthusiasm!
This was indeed, I think, the easiest iconographic problem to 'unveil'. This 'Solomon's wisdom' was painted by Gaspar De Cra(e)yer in the 17th c. The canvas was commissioned by a college of aldermen, i.e. 'a magistrate' or 'a tribunal or court' (the magistrate of the 'Old Borough' of the Flemish city of Ghent).
Now you guessed the theme, let's get into some details:
1. What was the women's 'profession'? And does this show in their representation?
2. What are the typical symbols for Solomon as a king?
3. This 'exemplum iustitiae' (see my article on the subject) is clearly inspired by the Holy Bible. Can you find the specific text and check if other elements of the text are represented in the painting as well?
See you soon!
Georges Martyn
Dear prof. Martyn,
ReplyDeletethank you very much for your active participation even before the beginning of the classes! Lucie has been very quick and has given the right answer: good work! I would like to give a little information too: the text is 1 Kings 3: 16-28. See you!
In the Solomon's wisdom legend both women are prostitutes: maybe in that representation one could guess it from the wide neckline of the woman (standing on the right) that shows her breasts.
ReplyDeleteI hope to do it right, however I think that the symbols of King Salomon are the book that represents the wisdom and the sceptre that represents the power.
Instead, the Seal of Solomon, as the legend said, is a signet ring shaped hexagram: this symbol consists of two interlaced triangles which will be the symbol of the Jewish religion.
I have red the text in the Holy Bible and in my opinion there aren't in the painting other elements that are represented as well.
Francesca Pucci
Thanks, Francesca.
ReplyDeleteGood answer as far as the women's business is concerned and, yes, especially the right one looks rather 'wildly' dressed. But especially the COLOUR of the women's clothing has a specific meaning. Yellow is a colour I wouldn't advise you to wear in ancient times...
Typical for a king is indeed his SCEPTRE. And do not forget his CROWN, of course! Thanks for adding suggestions on the seal and the book.
As far as 'sticking to the text' concerns, De Crayer made one mistake. Indeed not according to the passage of this dispute between the two women. But if the painter had read 1 Kings 10:19, he should have painted: 'the throne had six steps, and at the back of the throne was a calf's head, and on each side of the seat were armrests and two lions standing beside the armrests'...
Now you resolved the first iconographical problem, let me help all of you a little bit with the Dutch blue tile, mentioning 'T.1.L.19'.
ReplyDeleteThe abbreviation stands for a reference to a text. This time it is not about a biblical passage. Try to think of a very important collection of texts for Ancient Regime jurists ... Something with numbered 'T' and 'L'.
Have a try!
Georges Martyn
I think that is very good talk about the iconographical problem,because through these rappresentations the iconography explains the role of justice;especially in the solomon's legend are rappresented all themes about the right justice infact also through the text in the bible(1kings 3:16-28),Solomon embodies the right justice and the typical attitude of the jourists to understand what is right and what is wrong through interpretation in this case of the behavior and reactions of the two women and in my opinion also the fact that solomon is rappresented elevated respect the other protagonists especially respect the two prostitutes simbolizes his role.
ReplyDeleteRoberta Antonelli
ReplyDeleteDear Prof.Martyn the texts about the connection beetween law and iconography explain very well how all simbols and images testify the interaction beetween law and art especially in the rappresentation of The Last Judment that changes in different times or the rappresentation of Lady Justice that embodies the Justice and also Dott.ssa Gialdroni showed this tipycal rappresentation in the "Palazzo di giustizia"in rome during her lesson about the interation between law and architecture.Is very difficult for me find the meaning of the second immage,maybe the text in wich we can find the datum and the meaning is the french code civil?i'm sorry for my question but i'm very interested to understand the meaning.Roberta Antonelli
ReplyDeleteI will try to answer Professor Martyn’s questions :
ReplyDelete1. The two women are prostitutes: we can understand it from their showy dresses, opened on their breast, from the jewels and from the loose hair of one of them; moreover, in contrast with this rich appearance, one of them is bare foot, while the other one wears clogs, and this suggest that they aren’t real ladies.
2. King Solomon is represented as an ancient roman emperor, seated on the throne with the crown on his head and the sceptre in his right hand.
3. In this passage of the Holy Bible (1Re 3, 16-28) is described the whole story: two women used to live in the same house, both of them had a baby in the same period, but one of the children died, suffocated during the night; so, one of them decided to go to the king because, according to her story, the other woman stole her child; the King, having no evidence, said that he would have cut in two the baby to put them to the test: the woman who would have asked him for mercy was the real mother. Both the children (the dead one and the other alive) and the sword are represented in the painting.
Luigi Papi
I try to found the text that one could refer to the abbreviation: maybe is the nineteenth book (Liber) of the Digesto. The first title of that book is about "De actionibus empti venditi" or the reciprocal performance in the contract of sale.
ReplyDeleteI try to interpret that paint by this point of view: I think that the people in the paint are merchants and perhaps there was a problem about the horse's sale so was necessary a judgement.
Right now I can't do it better than that,I'm sorry!
Francesca Pucci
Maybe the interpretation of Francesca is right but is strange that the man wich rappresents the judge in the picture with a twig that indicates the man with the horse appears barefoot respect other protagonists and this fact is strange because in all of pictures generally the judge is central and wears luxuries clothes or for example mantles like in the solomon's picture,but on the other hand he's rappresented on a scale and often the judges are rappresented on the scales like Prof.Martyn sais in the text,like a simble of superiority.Has Francesca resolve the iconographical problem? Roberta Antonelli
ReplyDeleteThank you, Roberta and Luigi, for your comments.
ReplyDeleteOn Solomon's Wisdom the most important things have been said by now. The last comments by Luigi contain a good synthesis and worthful additions.
So let's turn to the blue tile now. And let me add another hint to my former post on the blog. "T.1.L.19" refers to a passage in Justinian's Corpus Iuris Civilis. 'T' stands for 'titulus' and 'L' for 'liber'. Does this help you to 'understand' the iconography?
Congratulations to Francesca! (Sorry my post crossed hers, so that I didn't reply earlier.)
ReplyDeleteThe Dutch tile (Harlingen 1687) is one out of series of ceramic tiles representing the titles of the Digest. This one is indeed on 'de actionibus empti venditi' (D.19.1).
Roberta is correctly assuming that the standing man with the branch of bough, up the steps, is the judge.
The discussion is about a contract of sale of goods, of course. The seller (the left man with his goods (=cloths) under his arm) promised to deliver the goods to the buyer. Unfortunately, the horse arrived at the buyer's place with no more goods on its back. Who bears the risk??
As the seller was in charge of the delivery (he is leading the horse), the buyer (=claimant, standing on the right hand side of the judge) gets his claim adjudged.
Problem two solved!
Let's have a look at problem three...
I think the painting is more interesting is the very last one left.
ReplyDeleteOn the side of the painting there are people around a table that seem to be lawyers but do not participate in the trial, they act as mere spectators.
It seems that people implore for help or justice, and the man dressed in red, which embodies in some way justice on earth (perhaps a judge?) points to the sky as if to say that the only true justice is in God and not on earth.
I do not know maybe it's just my imagination!
Lisa Picone
I have read your comments about the dutch tile.
ReplyDeleteif the person on the right of the judge is the buyer and the person that is leading the horse is the seller,the question that we have to ask to ourself is: who are the two persons on the left of the picture that are holding the clothes?
personally I think that they are two person that have got the goods from the horse, even if we don't know why.
they could be thieves that have stolen the clothes from the horse,or maybe, they have found the clothes that the horse have lost along the way.
Valentina Favilli
Based on what i read in previous discussions, i did a search on GASPAR DE CRAYER and i'm impressed by the work ALEXANDER AND DIOGENES where the iconography is philosophical.
ReplyDeleteDiogenes replied ti Alexander when he asked him if there was any favour he might do for him:"stand a little less between me and the sun."
It's strong the contrast between the youthful and beautiful hero and the old man.
The message of the painting is the meaninglessness of earthly power when confronted with ethical principles.... even if is not a legal iconography i hope will get you interested!!! GIULIA CORCOS
Not easy to find an historical connection with the second picture, but I try to describe it.
ReplyDeleteOf course there are many elements that show a legal scene.
-The standing man in the centre of the scene is the protagonist, and with him lots of typical symbols of authority that he represents:hand in air,red gown,hard look.. probably he is a judge and he stood up from the chair behind him to make the decision
-His authorithy is clearly visible from the people in the right of a design.. they're imploring him for a favorable judgment.
-Opposite to the people there are other lawyers(and it's important that the people,maybe a family,is in the bottom of the scene, while the lawyers at the top of it).. I can't imagine their role, but they have pens and legal books or codes in the table.. so maybe they are a council, and they're annotating the judgment..
it's just a beginnig..i can't do it better for now
thank you!
Paolo D'Alessio
i was thinking about the third picture ...
ReplyDeletewe can see a group of peoples in front of a door that wear simple and poor clothes,this is in contrast with the style of the room and wealth of the other people.
it's possible that the poors peoples are begging justice for them and the person in the centre of the picture is saying that for them only the divine justice exist and anyone can have the human justice?
i'm thinking this because in ancient time law is not the same for all!!
Let me first answer to Giulia and to Valentina:
ReplyDelete- On the ceramic tile: actually we see twice the same two persons (buyer and seller at the moment of the contract and the two parties in front of the judge, again the same buyer and seller). As I shall show you later this week, putting two scenes with the same characters in one canvas is a common thing to do in legal iconography.
- On Gaspar de Crayer: right you are! He has been considered by most art historians as a 'small follower' of Rubens, but some of his works are indeed brilliant.
Lisa, Giordano and Paolo,
ReplyDeleteI thank you for giving very good first impressions on the third canvas.
Lisa describes it very well: the men at the table, some of them at least, look like lawyers but do not seem to participate; the (poor) people coming from the left are imploring something; the man in the middle is pointing to God in heaven as if the only source of justice is to be found there... Correct! But who, than, is this man??
- Paolo is right: the man got up from the chair and might be a judge. (His red robe is indeed a - canon - judge robe!) And thank you, Paolo, for making us see that the poor implorers are kneeling down to earth, while the lawyers sit high up.
- Giordano adds to that, very precisely too, that the poor beggars do not seem to fit well in the luxurious room.
Continuing on your suggestions: what if the protagonist of the painting was some kind of 'advocate' for poor people, helping them in the name of God above? What if he was a saint?
See you tomorrow!
I think that the first picture is extremely linked to " performance" lesson we had last week... It shows us how important and Smart could be mix different subjects to reach the goal which is the justice... Salomone Who rapresents the right and the wisdom and the power used the psychology to find a right to solve the case( wasn't him the first professor of law and humanities?!?!?)
ReplyDeleteAbout the second pitture it looks that it is divided in two parts, one with the richness (maybe given by the culture and the law) and the other one where poor people Are asking for something. The two"teams" look eachother and right in the middle i would say there is someone Who should judge(?!?). I am guessing pf course. A dog right down in the left corner (Who is a symbol of fidelity) looks scared or anyway worried. He looks at the poor people as well and it looks like he is protecting the books right NeXT to . Giulia baliva
I am so sorry for my horrible english but i have the authomatic dictionary changes the words i type
ReplyDeletePaolo’s comment is very interesting. Thinking more about another possible interpretation of the second picture, I think that men next to the chair (where probably was seated the judge) are advisors.
ReplyDeleteTheir legal assistance, thanks to the papers consultations and personal reasoned opinions, is essential for the case resolution. As we all can see those man are still talking about the case and one of those is still consulting ,probably, legal materials as if they disagree about some discussions points.
Moreover It is possible, that the youngest man(the first next to the judge on the left) is someone who is trying to learn the judging “art”. Maybe he’s a student which interested in the case, is trying to understand all the reasoning steps leads to decision. He seems to me fascinated by the judge! What do you think about it?
Luca Tosto
The interpretation of Giordano,in my opinion,is very good and with his interpretation we can be an a comparison with the first picture in wich Solomon try to interpret the behaviour of twwo women that probably embody the human and wrong justice especially for the first woman that sais that the child is her son meanwhile Solomon rappresents the right and divine justice and equally solomon like the central man in the third picture wears luxuries clothes and the two women like the poor people in the third picture wears poor clothes,so in my opinion clothes are the tools that rappresents the roles(on the hand the divine and right justice ,on the other hand the human and wrong justice) in both pictures.Roberta Antonelli
ReplyDeleteLuca saw very well that the people on the left are counsellors, giving arguments to the judge. Especially the youngest one is there to learn about practice. He is ‘the boy’ (in Dutch; ‘de knaepe’). I shall explain this point further in class.
ReplyDeleteRoberta’s assertion that the contradistinction between the well dressed people on the left and the group of poor beggars on the right might refer to the opposite between heavenly and earthly justice. A good try! However, most ancient legal iconography stresses that worldly justice must be based on divine law. So, the contradistinction is commonly not made.
Giulia’s pointing at the dog brings us to an interesting detail. Indeed, a dog very often stands for fidelity. Sometimes we see lady Justice between a (good) dog and a (bad) snake. But be aware that there is not only ‘the dog’, but that we should look at ‘what type of dog’ it is: a hunting dog, a pittbull, a poodle... They do not all stand for the same virtue or vice! In this case however, you should especially remark that there are two dogs: a mother dog and a little one. And this particularly refers to the fact that the man in the middle is always helping widows and orphans...
This brings me to the final hint on this painting. Left we see legal practitioners (advocate, proctor, notary, clerk). On the right hand side arrive poor people begging for help and justice. The man in the middle is a judge, an ecclesiastical one (wearing the red robe with white fur). He’s not just A judge, he is a SPECIAL one. This judge was canonised a SAINT just a few years after his dead. He became the patron saint of legal practitioners. Poor people who needed judicial assistance, today called ‘pro bono’, in former times went to this saint’s confraternities, begging for help ‘pro Deo et sancto ...’.
Who’s the saint we are looking for?
After the lesson,that was very interesting,i have a question,infact: we saw that in the legal iconography generally the right side rappresents the good side;so in the third picture the poor people are on the right while the well dressed people are on the left side and in reference to this fact i said,before the lesson, that the well dressed rappresent the right justice and the poor people rappresent the wrong justice but in reference to right and left is not like this,so what is the right interpretation?
ReplyDeleteIs St. Yves, an ecclesiastic judge that by his charity gained the title of advocate and patron of the poor. Is the patron of the lawyers!
ReplyDeleteI have only a question: why is St. Yves in that paint without halo? It's so strange in my opinion because I think that halo is an important symbol.
Francesca Pucci
Congratulations, Francesca! It is indeed Saint Yves. I shall elaborate on this painting on friday. You are right that it is rather strange NOT to see any halo or nimbus. On the other hand, it is lacking in many other Ivo-representations as well.
ReplyDeleteAs far as Roberta's last remark concerns, I draw your attention to the fact that the 'RIGHT' side is the RIGHT HAND SIDE OF GOD. When we look for instance to a last judgment, than we face God, so that right for Him is left for us.... So the poor beggars come from the bad side.... More on left and right and the last judgment tomorrow!
all three images rapresent the justice;but i think that the first rapresent the punishment against mother who is taking the child from the arms;
ReplyDeletethe second imagee rapresents maybe a court and a judge before whom many people seem to implore something ... maybe justice or lose!
Fabiola Capparelli
Today in class Professor Martyn spoke about the interesting image of Lady Justice is often represented as a blindfolded woman. this can have a positive meaning (justice is impartial because it does not distinguish between rich and poor) or negative (because the justice in this way does not see the facts), but also the goddess of fortune is often represented as a blindfolded woman, so I wanted ask to Professor Martyn : there may be some connection between these two images or is it just a coincidence?
ReplyDeleteLisa Picone
I think it is not a coincidence, but they Are both characterized by the same thing:impartiality... But of course this is just my opinion! Back to the lesson we had today, prof martyn said that again trials took place into the churches in the middle ages because everything was linked to the religion and to GOd, but isn't it the opposite of what happened centuries earlier? I remember that the first "basilicas" were just markets and justice courts by the romans time, and the "navate" were built because like that in between the columns they putted tents to create different courts. Once the christianity became something too big to be hidden and ignorated then the basilicas became the place where the people could pray. Giulia baliva
ReplyDeleteToday doc.Martyn showed us a lot of interesting paintings about"Last judgment" and the representation of Justice.In particular"last judgment"is a strong theme during the Medieval era.Infact this era is characterized by the constant presence of God in all the aspects of life,the fear of God and his punishment,sin and his consequence...I paid particular attention at the"Last judgment"of Van Eyck,Flemish painter who represents the figures in a realistic way.There are three plans and the figures have different dimensions maybe for their different importance.There is Christ,Mary and John the Baptist,the angels and the twelve apostles.In the bottom the dead emerge from the earth and the sea and they are waiting for the judgment with the archangel Michele who holds a symbol of Justice:the sword.This painting is a good example of the relation between art and law,but also in my opinion it had in that period an education function,a message for all people:man had to live correctly and religiously otherwise they will be sentin Hell as the picture shows.Can i interpret these images in the sense of a moral message able to encourage people to choose good in their life?Federica Gulli'.
ReplyDeleteI was impressed by evolution that took in painting the picture of law and iustitia.
ReplyDeleterepresented the beginning with a sword in his hand as if to signal the passage of the divine in the hands of those judges, then represented as a tree symbol and guardian of certainty of knowledge that is there for centuries and knows what happened, we saw the figure of a tree surrounded by barriers and what were depicted in the courts and the delimitation within this indicated the absence of violence, another example S. Louis.
Furthermore, some representations were taken from the Egyptian tradition as the scale.
subsequently it has come to represent not with a woman but as a man with a sword and in the turtle, a symbol of slowness and calm that is the right justice. later with a bandage over his eyes so as not to see the rich and poor and unable to judge without being influenced by the firm, but the bandage if justice should be impartial in itself, I think it is irrelevant because even without such a good court is able to judge the individual case without being influenced by what he sees.
Finally, justice has been attached to the concept of peace.
Monica Di Silvestro
"Today in class Professor Martyn spoke about the interesting image of Lady Justice is often represented as a blindfolded woman. this can have a positive meaning (justice is impartial because it does not distinguish between rich and poor) or negative (because the justice in this way does not see the facts), but also the goddess of fortune is often represented as a blindfolded woman, so I wanted ask to Professor Martyn : there may be some connection between these two images or is it just a coincidence?"
ReplyDeleteI was thinking about the same thing- but, in my opinion, by comparing blindfolded fortune to blindfolded justice we enhance the negative meaning of the veil. Fortune is blind by definition, while justice aim's is equality and impartiality: the symbolic blindness of fate holds no ambiguities, being ontologic*, while "there is a critical ambiguity to the blindfold of justice" (Images of justice- Curtis and Resnik). Cesare Ripa wrote in his "Iconologia" that Justice is "blindfolded for nothing but pure reason, not the often misleading evidence of the senses, should be used in making judgments", but while this means no bribery and no influences (from the sovereigns) this could also mean a failure to see the truth. Let's think about cupids, or Eros himself: blindfoldness here is an "indication of the foolishness and confusion generated by love". And during dr. Gialdroni's lessons we also talked about the figures sorrounding Cavour statue and we wondered about the meaning of the cloth covering Thought's eyes: it could be read as a symbol of the Vatican's obscurantism. So, considered that the blindfold is a relatively late addition to the imaginary of Justice (most images of Justice before the 16th century did not include blindfolds) we can read it in two opposite meanings: we might imagine that the judge imposes her own blindfold to have "no fear or favor" (and, so, to stood apart from the sovereign) or we might imagine that the sovereing imposes the blindfold. I'm quite fascinated by these ambiguities; in my humble opinion, symbols (like laws?!) have to be interpreted, and- as we all know- interpretation is not a static activity: there is not a fixed and correct result.
*even if the blindfold, opposed to blindness, suggests an act of self-restraint.
Corallina Lopez
Sure, Carollina, interpretation is not static, but dynamic. Laws and symbols get different meanings throughout the centuries... At the end of today’s lesson I mentioned some hypotheses on where the lasting success of the blindfold might come from. Earlier today I mentioned the importance of Alciatus’ Emblemata. Tomorrow I shall show you the picture that, to me, is rather convincing evidence for the hypothesis that Alciatus’ Emblemata is the real reason for the blindfold’s success.
ReplyDeleteAs both Lisa and Carollina mentioned, there is an intriguing ‘coincidence’ in the fact that also Fortune is represented with a blindfold. Giulia sees in this parallel a similarity with impartiality, but while being ‘impartial’ is good, deciding blindly by good luck is bad... So I think, like some of you remarked very correctly, that this ‘coincidence’ only strengthens the negative aspect of the blindfold. I shall show you tomorrow a critical engraving of the 16th c., where actually Justitia is represented AS Fortuna... and that, of course, is not good.
As far as the connection between ‘deciding cases’ and ‘religious legitimisation’ is concerned, many books have been written on the subject (especially by legal anthropologists). When a Last Judgment is depicted in a judge’s room, in the first place the judges themselves are the ‘addressees’ of the painting. But of course, Federica is right that a Last Judgment also has a broader educational function, for all the people, certainly when it is placed above the entrance of the church, in the middle of town.
At this point, Giulia’s comment on the basilicas is indeed some kind of ‘exception’. What legal anthropologists see in many cultures and what was obvious in the Christian middle ages, indeed is not completely transferable to the Roman situation... Thank you for that remark!
And I thank all of you for participating in these discussions!
The lessons of Prof. Martyn were very interesting. I was very impressed by the painting "the advocate of difficult affairs" by Pieter Breughel (Ghent Museum Of Fine Arts). There are many reproductions of this picture: Monaco, Bruges, etc.. It describes a typical situation of the reality of 15th-16th century: people were going to ask for help to the procurator about a dispute ( unlike the advocate-long toga with epitoga-, the procurator-short toga without epitoga- was always necessary ),they brought their gifts or money to procurator; there was a younge man was learning about practice who wrote notes and opened the door; there was many procedural bags and paperwork. In this painting we can see how were represented procurators or legal professions in general, we can see the view of the artist; the messages coming from the picture are: "time is money", "procedures can take a long time", "writing = money". So men of law becomes men of money, it means that legal professions are all corrupt. Thinking about that I was reminded of another lawyer figure in our literature: Dr. Azzaccagarbugli in "I promessi sposi" by Alessandro Manzoni. He is the lawyer of iniquity and vice, called by the common people like Dr. Azzeccagarbugli; he is described high, dry, bald, with a red nose wearing a robe that serves as a dressing gown. His studio is a frame of the physical decay and moral character: it is a large room on three walls of which hang the portraits of the Twelve Caesars, on the fourth wall supported a large shelf of old books and dusty in the middle is a table full of cards in bulk, with three or four chairs around, and one part a rather shabby chair with armrests. Renzo (a poor farmer) brings him four capons as gifts, but Dr. Azzaccagarbugli rejects them because can't go against the richest and most powerfull people like don Rodrigo.
ReplyDeleteThe man of law tramples upon his duties as a professional to kill the justice and truth( man of law = man of money).
cristina di florio
ReplyDeleteThank you very much, Cristina, for this comment and beautiful comparison to a famous Italian book I was not familiar with (I just 'googled' it and saw that, although written in the 19th century, the story is situated in the first decades of the 17th century, exactly the period of the enormous succes of the painting by Breughel the Younger).
ReplyDeleteThis brings us to a remarkable link between 'law and iconography' on the one hand and 'law and literature' on the other, the topic on which you will work further this week with prof. Garry Watt. Enjoy it!
It was a great pleasure lecturing in Rome! Thanks for your enthusiasm and interest. If you still have any questions or great ideas on historical legal iconography, never hesitate to contact me: Georges.Martyn@ugent.be. I wish all of you good luck in your further academic and profesisonal carreers!
Georges Martyn
as prof martyn suggested us, i went to the archivio di stato on sunday for the guided tour of"sulle ombre di caravaggio" .actually you cannot really say it is an exibition of caravaggio's art, but for sure about caravaggio's life... it is a legal testimoniance of what happened by that time. as prof martyn said it is very interesting cause you can actually see the books with the torture or the sentences of the judges drown on it and many different matters connected to the law. there are legal books, paints and poetries about declarations of one artist about another. and actually that was their way to say their opinion and from these were the trials.
ReplyDeleteit is very interesting. the story is about a big trial where caravaggio made a list of bad artists and painters and good ones. it is about the death convictions and their rule of punish but at the same time to teach to the other people how to live their life to avoid that end...
the athmosphere dominated by corruption and church is easly recognizable.
the opportunity to walk into the archivio di stato is also a great thing cause there are preserved hundreds of books in a very old and fashinating library.
tthe entrance is 8 euro and is included a guide that shows and explain everything in detail with many anectodes about the private and complicated life of caravaggio, always in between the power and the law problems.
giulia baliva
ReplyDelete